Podcast: Borders and Belonging

Why We Build Border Walls

Since the 1990s, the world has seen a spike in border wall construction. What is driving the increase?

• The episode begins with a reflection from journalist Todd Miller on the dangers facing undocumented migrants along the US-Mexican border. Host Maggie Perzyna is then joined by Douglas Massey (Princeton University) and Elisabeth Vallet (University of Quebec at Montreal).

How has Brexit Changed the UK for Migrants?

Despite the well-documented benefits of labour migration, much of the discussion before the referendum in the UK argued that it was a bad thing. Now, a few years on, are labour shortages painting a new picture or are migrants forever stigmatised?

• Alex Bulat, a Romanian-born councillor on Cambridgeshire County Council, provides a voice from the ground. Bridget Anderson (Bristol University) and Aija Lulle (Loughborough University) talk to host Maggie Perzyna about fear of migration and why they feel hope for the future of migrants in the UK.

Human Smuggling or Human Trafficking? Why the Difference Matters

Politicians sometimes talk about human smuggling and trafficking as if they were the same thing. It’s not always because of ignorance: they want to gain support for blocking the flows of all migrants and refugees.

• In this episode we hear from Luca Stevenson of European Sex Workers Rights Alliance, who explains that, even with sex workers, we have to look at what drives them to the trade in the first place and recognise that laws to prevent trafficking can cause vulnerable women even more harm. Host Maggie Perzyna speaks with Kamala Kempadoo (York University) and Gabriella Sanchez (University of Massachusetts) who argue that we need to look deeper at the systemic injustices behind smuggling, at what drives people to risk everything for a chance of a better life.

When AI is managing migration, should we be afraid? 

Climate change and other disasters are displacing ever more people. Could artificial intelligence help predict impending crises and where humanitarian aid will be needed? Could algorithms be used to match refugees to regions where they will have the best chance of thriving? And what happens when you take human judgement out of the process, or if data is used to exclude some migrants unjustly?

• Hilary Evans Cameron (Toronto Metropolitan University) starts off the discussion with a refugee case to show that human-decision making, itself, can be dangerously unreliable. Then host Maggie Prezyna speaks with experts Ana Beduschi (Exeter University) and Tuba Birca (Vrije Universiteit Brussel), who walk us through what AI is, how it works and what are its risks, pitfalls and potential for good.

Why has China become an international student hub? 

For years, many students from China sought to further their studies in countries like the US or the UK. But in the past decade or so, China has itself become a hub for international students. In this episode, two leading researchers will shed light on this phenomenon, and help us understand how and why China has become such a popular destination for students globally.

• Hear what it's like to be a foreign student in China from Aya, who fled the war in Syria with her family and sought refuge in China when she was only 13 years old. Then host Maggie Prezyna speaks with experts Obert Hodzi (University of Liverpool) and Ben Mulvey (University of Glasgow) about the advantages and challenges of studying in China.

The migrants that the West doesn’t talk about

From the way Western media and politicians talk about migration, you’d never guess that only 30% of refugees, asylum seekers and economic migrants are heading for the Global North. Instead, most people on the move like this are travelling from one country in the Global South to another.

• Hear from Vani Saraswathi, a journalist who has spent years documenting the experiences of migrants working in the Gulf states. Then host Maggie Prezyna speaks with experts Nicola Piper (University of Sydney) and Joseph Teye (University of Ghana) to explore the unique patterns and challenges of South-South migration.

Are migrants the answer to labour shortages?

Nations in the global North are struggling with labour shortages dubbed in the media as ‘the great retirement' and ‘the great resignation'. Unemployment rates are running at near-record lows. As a result many nations are letting more temporary migrant labourers in to fill the gaps. Is this a good idea?

• Hear from Syed Hussan, executive director of the Migrant Workers Alliance for Change, a group in Toronto, Canada, that comprises farmworkers, domestic workers and refugees, many of them are undocumented. Then host Maggie Prezyna speaks with Armine Yalnizyan (Atkinson Foundation Fellow on the Future of Workers) and Martin Ruhs, (Migration Policy Center at the European University Institute) on the complexity of the labour shortage and how the migrant labour piece fits into the economic puzzle.

Should we call people climate refugees?

As temperatures rise around the planet, floods, drought and deforestation are forcing people in the Global South from their homes and livelihoods. The media likes to call them climate refugees, but is that accurate? This episode will unpack the catchy phrase and guide us through some of the nuanced intersections between the environment and migration.

• Hear from Daniela Paredes Grijalva, who saw firsthand the consequences of a natural disaster on the Indonesian island of Sulawesi and the displacement it caused. Then host Maggie Perzyna speaks with Kathleen Hermans, senior researcher at the Leibniz Institute of Agricultural Development in Transition Economies (IAMO) in Halle, Germany, and Robert McLeman, professor of geography and environmental studies at Wilfrid Laurier University in Waterloo, Canada, and a policy adviser on the effects of climate change and global migration patterns.

Are Ukrainian refugees still 'temporary'?

Since February 2022, over 19M Ukrainians have fled their country. Almost half probably remain spread across the world, most of them in Europe. They are considered temporary refugees – but are they really temporary? Where are these people, and what challenges face their host countries?

• This episode begins with Aleksandra and Michał Miszułowicz, a couple in Poland who helped resettled thousands of Ukrainian refugees as soon as the conflict began in 2022. Host Maggie Perzyna is then joined by Izabela Grabowska (Kozminski University in Poland and Centre for Research on Social Change and Human Mobility) and Yuliya Kosyakova (Otto Friedrich University Bamberg and Research Institute of the Federal Employment Agency in Nuremberg).

Does brain drain hurt the Global South?

Many countries are mining the Global South for one of its vital natural resources – its people. This creates a ‘brain drain’ of professionals and academics leaving the Global South in search of better opportunities abroad. Why exactly is this happening, though, and what is the socio-economic harm done to the countries left behind?

• Hear from Kevin Njabo, who is a conservation biologist that grew up in Cameroon but had to go to Nigeria to study and the US to pursue his academic career. Then host Maggie Perzyna turns to two esteemed researchers delve into this topic: Ninna Sørensen (Danish Institute for International Studies) and Manuel Orozco (Inter-American Dialogue and Harvard University Center for International Development).

Why are so many undocumented migrants in the US Indigenous?

Every year, hundreds of thousands of migrants from Central America and Mexico make their way to the US border, fleeing violence, environmental destruction, persecution, and displacement. Many of these migrants are from Indigenous groups. This episode explores the historical roots of this migration, and how the echoes of colonialism are shaping the journey of Indigenous migrants.

• The episode begins with a reflection from Odilia Romero, (Comunidades Indígenas en Liderazgo), with critical analysis from guests Shannon Speed, Chickasaw Nation (UCLA) and Asad L. Asad, (Stanford University).

How border policies in the Americas are pushing people to travel across the treacherous Darién Gap

The Darién Gap, also dubbed as “Hell on Earth”, has become a leading transit point for migrants in search of work and safety in North America since authorities have cracked down on other routes by air and sea. In this episode, host Maggie Perzyna investigates how global migration regimes push migrants to risk their lives for a chance at a better life.

Guests: Robert, Venezuelan migrant who crossed the Darién; Edwin Guillermo Viales Mora, Data and Research Assistant and Missing Migrants Project Focal Point, International Organization for Migration; Caitlyn Yates, PhD candidate, University of British Columbia.

Why is xenophobia so entrenched in South Africa?

In contrast to the late Desmond Tutu's hopeful aspirations for the "rainbow nation" and his efforts to champion human rights, post-apartheid South Africa has been marked by xenophobic violence, adding insecurities for both citizens and foreign nationals. In this episode, host Maggie Perzyna asks why xenophobia has become so entrenched across the political spectrum, and connects the dots between apartheid, economic development and the scapegoating that’s directed toward the state. 

Guests: Silindile Mlilo, PhD research fellow and Project Manager at Xenowatch, African Center for Migration and Society, University of Witwatersrand; Trevor Ngwane, Director of the Center for Sociological Research and Practice, University of Johannesburg; and Loren Landau, Professor, University of Oxford and University of Witwatersrand, African Center for Migration and Society.

Brokering borders: EU bilateral agreements and the price of ‘return migration’

In the pursuit of controlling its external borders, the European Union has forged numerous bilateral agreements with African countries. These agreements are not just pieces of paper, they're instruments that wield immense influence over the movement of people between Europe and Africa. In this episode, host Maggie Perzyna seeks to understand how EU bilateral agreements are reshaping the migration dynamics on both continents.

Guests: Leander Kandilige, Senior Lecturer at the Center for Migration Studies, University of Ghana; Amanda Bisong, PhD candidate at Vrije Universiteit and policy officer with the Center for Africa Europe Relations; Andrew Geddes, Chair in Migration Studies and Director of the Migration Policy Center at the European University Institute.

Migration & technology: The rise of digital nomads

A small but increasing number of today's knowledge workers are breaking free from traditional offices, using technology to craft a life that blends work, travel and freedom. In this episode, host Maggie Perzyna and her guests dive deep into the changing nature of work and the rise of digital nomads. What is driving this growing phenomenon, and how are countries around the world and local communities dealing with it?

Guests: Holly Vipond, former digital nomad; Anna Triandafyllidou, Canada Excellence Research Chair in Migration and Integration at Toronto Metropolitan University; Dave Cook, PhD researcher at University College London.

The Arctic: Climate, resources and migration in times of change

While the Arctic has been home to Indigenous peoples for millennia, settlers in the past few centuries have been drawn to the region's remote wilderness, majestic landscapes and ample resources. More recently, global market forces and climate change are shaping migration to the Arctic in new and complex ways.

Guests: Malini Sengupta, coordinator at the Yellowknife Immigration Partnership; Roger Norum, Professor of Cultural Anthropology at the University of Oulu; Timothy Heleniak, Senior Research Fellow at Nordregio.

Is Japan turning into a migration state?

Despite its historical reputation for social, political, and legal closure and a certain reluctance towards admitting immigrants, Japan is taking steps towards a more inclusive national immigration policy. In this episode, host Maggie Perzyna and her guests explore the evolving role of Japan as a migration state, shedding light on innovative policies and their potential to bring about transformative changes in Japanese society.

Guests: Nicholas A. R. Fraser, Senior Research Associate at CERC Migration; Nana Oishi, Associate Professor in Japanese Studies at the University of Melbourne; Ito Peng, Professor of Sociology and Public Policy, Director of the Centre for Global Social Policy, and Canada Research Chair in Global Social Policy at the University of Toronto.

Rising tides, sinking roots: Climate change, adaptation and mobility in Pacific Island nations

Land is a critical component of Pacific Island societies, and the impact of climate change on these populations is a growing global concern. Host Maggie Perzyna, along with esteemed guest researchers and a community consultant from one of the world's lowest lying countries, seeks to understand the regional implications of climate change and the role the international community needs to play in supporting adaptation strategies.

Guests: Robert Karoro, consultant from Kiribati; Tammy Tabe, Oceana Research Fellow at East West Center in Hawai'i; John Campbell, retired Associate Professor and Research Associate at the University of Waikato in New Zealand.

From oil to innovation: Changing economies in the Gulf

Did you know that the Middle East holds the world's highest ratio of migrants to its national population? From historical ties to the oil economy to the burgeoning knowledge-based economies of today, host Maggie Perzyna explores how evolving economic landscapes in the Gulf are reshaping migration dynamics.

Guests: Deepak Unnikrishnan, Assistant Professor at NYU Abu Dhabi; Laure Assaf, Assistant Professor at NYU Abu Dhabi; Hélène Thiollet, Research Fellow at the French National Center for Scientific Research at Sciences Po.

Statelessness: No country to call home

In the Season 2 finale, host Maggie Perzyna asks her guests: What does it mean to live without a nationality? This episode of Borders & Belonging will dive into the complexities behind statelessness, its causes and social realities, and the far-reaching effects it has on individuals and communities.

Guests: Rintu Borah, PhD candidate at the Indian Institute of Technology Bombay; Noora Lori, Associate Professor at the Pardee School of Global Studies, Boston University; Allison Petrozziello, instructor at Balsillie School of International Affairs, Wilfrid Laurier University.

Nothing about us without us

Welcome back to Borders and Belonging! In the first episode of Season 3, host Maggie Perzyna explores the power of collective action and the importance of centering refugee voices. She is joined by three special guests to discuss how academics and policymakers can ensure that the experiences of those most affected by migration policies guide decision-making processes. What does the principle of “nothing about us without us” mean for refugee and migrant communities?

Guests: Mustafa Alio, Co-Managing Director of R-SEAT; Oroub El-Abed, Associate Professor at Birzeit University and Middle East Regional Research Coordinator for the LERRN project; and James Milner, Associate Professor and Director of the Migration and Diaspora Studies program at Carleton University, and Project Director of LERRN.

What is a solidarity city?

This episode explores how cities can become sanctuaries for migrants and refugees. Follow Maggie Perzyna as she discovers how grassroots efforts and city-level practices can create more inclusive urban environments. We also hear about the Soli*City project, an international initiative creating urban strategies that help migrants and refugees to integrate into their communities.

Guests: Véronique Lamontagne, Lawyers Without Borders Canada; Harald Bauder, Toronto Metropolitan University; and Mary Boatemaa Setrana, University of Ghana.

Artful connections: Challenging narratives of migration and belonging using arts-based methods

This episode takes a closer look at the powerful intersection of art and migration studies. How can creative expression challenge dominant narratives and help reshape the way we think about migration? Maggie Perzyna learns about art-based and community-based projects that move the needle. We also hear about WhereWeStand, a powerful multimedia storytelling project that pairs Indigenous and newcomer voices to reimagine their relationships to the land some call Turtle Island and others know as Canada.

Guests: Izzeddin Hawamda, Palestinian teacher, writer and co-founder of the interfaith dialog group Bridge; Aaron McKay, Anishinaabemowin photographer and the founder of Giiwe platform; Cyrus Sundar Singh, Research Fellow, CERC Migration, Toronto Metropolitan University, and an award-winning filmmaker, musician and storyteller; and Heather George, Executive Director, Woodland Cultural Center, curator, artist and educator.

Irregular not irrelevant: Conceptualizing and measuring irregular migration

When exploring the big questions migration scholars are asking, irregular migration is impossible to ignore. In this episode, Maggie Perzyna engages with activists and scholars on the ground to gain deeper insights into this complex issue, the factors driving it, and the impact it has on both migrants and communities.

Guests: Brynn Campbell, founder of Aidez Nous à Aider; Ilse van Liempt, Associate Professor at Utrecht University and coordinator of the Horizon Europe project Improving the Living and Labour Conditions of Irregular Migrant households in Europe (I-CLAIM); and Albert Kraler, Assistant Professor at Danube University Krems and coordinator of the Horizon Europe project Measuring Irregular Migration (MIrreM).

False narratives with real consequences: The impact of social media disinformation on migration policy

The rise in false narratives surrounding immigrants and refugees is often amplified by social media and manipulated for political gain. In this episode, host Maggie Perzyna unpacks the dangerous intersection between digital disinformation and immigration. Experts emphasize this critical area of study as social media networks increasingly shape public opinion and policy decisions, while false narratives about migration spread faster than ever.

Guests: Katie Paul, Director, Tech Transparency Project; Anatoliy Gruzd, Professor and Canada Research Chair in Privacy Preserving Digital Technologies, Toronto Metropolitan University; and Mattias Ekman, Associate Professor, Stockholm University.

How do I decentre that?

Decentring research means challenging Western paradigms, amplifying diverse perspectives, and rethinking power dynamics and knowledge production. This is easier said than done, especially in migration studies, where control, security, and economic views dominate the debate. But understanding the lived realities of migrants must be more than just a question—it's a critical shift we can no longer ignore.

Guests: Sharon Stein, Associate Professor, University of British Columbia, founder of Gesturing Towards Decolonial Futures Collective; Peggy Levitt, Chair of Sociology, Wellesley College; and Amin Moghadam, Research Lead, Cities and Migration, CERC Migration, Toronto Metropolitan University.

What’s driving migration?

What shapes migration patterns across different regions? How do economic, social, and political factors drive movement in unique ways? The MEMO project seeks to untangle these complexities, mapping the connections between internal, intraregional, and intercontinental migration. In this episode, host Maggie Perzyna and her guest experts explore how bilateral agreements, regional policies, and power dynamics between origin and destination countries influence migration patterns across the globe.

Guests: Gretchen Kuhner, director of the Institute for Women in Migration, Mexico City, Claudia Masferrer, Associate Professor, El Colegio de México, and Coordinator of the Regional Hub for the Americas, MEMO Project, and Richa Shivakoti, Research Lead on Migration Governance, CERC Migration, Toronto Metropolitan University, and South Asia Hub Member, MEMO Project.

Skills shortages, AI and the future of work

AI, aging populations, and the energy transition: how are these forces reshaping the job market and global migration? In this episode, distinguished guests walk us through how automation is transforming industries, influencing hiring, and impacting migrant workers. Are we creating new opportunities or just making it harder for them to find decent jobs?

Guests: Mateusz Żydek, Communication Team Lead at Randstad Polska; Tesseltje De Lange, professor at Radboud University and principal investigator of the Global Strategy for Skills Migration and Development (GS4S) project; and Alexandra Przegalińska, professor at Kozminski University and member of the Link4Skills project.

Beyond the Big City

Not everything happens in big cities. This episode explores how small and mid-sized cities in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are attracting and retaining immigrants. Researchers unpack regional migration policies, what helps newcomers settle, and how to build communities that thrive beyond the skyline.

Guests: Sarah Wiseman, Canada Branch Director, Shapiro Foundation; Melissa Kelly, Senior Research Associate at CERC Migration, TMU; and Aude Bernard, Senior Lecturer at the School of the Environment, University of Queensland.

The violence of uncertainty: Everyday impacts of precarious immigration status

Imagine this: at age three, your family relocates to a new country. You grow up normally—school, sports teams, friends. In Grade 12, you discover you lack immigration status, preventing university applications. Suddenly, you're not like your peers, and a life of hidden struggles and uncertainty unfolds. In the final episode of the season, Maggie Perzyna explores what it means to live with precarious immigration status. Researchers unpack the idea of “the violence of uncertainty”—how shifting policies, bureaucratic delays, and the threat of deportation disrupt migrants’ lives, from DACA recipients losing jobs to children denied mental health support.

Guests: Sarah Pole, Program Director of Childhood Arrival Support & Advocacy Program (CASA) at Justice for Children and Youth Legal Clinic; Patricia Landolt, Professor of Sociology at University of Toronto; and Benjamin Roth, Associate Dean at the College of Social Work, University of South Carolina.

Unpacking Canada's Strong Borders Act: What Bill C-2 Means for Refugees in Canada

In June 2025, the Canadian Government introduced Bill C-2 as a way to strengthen border security and modernize Canada’s asylum and immigration system. However, the bill is being criticized by legal experts and human rights advocates for introducing sweeping discretionary powers for officials and arbitrary measures, including a one-year deadline to apply for refugee status.

In the second episode of In Conversation, experts explain what the bill proposes, why these provisions raise serious concerns, and what’s at stake for refugees. They also explore the implications of expanded data sharing, the removal of access to independent hearings and how these changes could disproportionately impact the most vulnerable.

Guests: Sharry Aiken, Professor, Faculty of Law, Queen's University and former President of the Canadian Council for Refugees; Claire Ellis, PhD candidate, Toronto Metropolitan University; and Anna Triandafyllidou, Canada Excellence Research Chair in Migration and Integration, Toronto Metropolitan University.