Season 4, Ep. 13:
Show notes
Below, you find links to all of the research referenced by our guests, as well as other resources you may find useful.
Get Involved!
ActionAid International (external link)
International Rescue Committee (external link)
Websites & Media
City Initiative on Migrants with Irregular Status in Europe. (2023, February 24). Municipal ID cards: A new form of citizenship (external link) . University of Oxford.
Council of Europe. (n.d.). Intercultural cities: Torino (external link) (Italy).
Global Exchange on Migration and Diversity. (3 April 2019). Irregular migrants in European cities: Barcelona's response (external link) . University of Oxford’s Centre on Migration, Policy and Society (COMPAS)
InfoMigrants. (2024, November 25). Almost 62,000 workers undocumented on farms in Sicily (external link) .
Policy & Reports
Corrado, A., Caruso, F. S., Lo Cascio, M., Nori, M., Palumbo, L., & Triandafyllidou, A. (2018). Is Italian agriculture a ‘pull factor’ for irregular migration—and, if so, why? (external link) Open Society Foundations, European Policy Institute Report: 1–34.
McAuliffe, M., & Triandafyllidou, A. (2021). Word migration report 2022 (external link) .
Palumbo, L., & Sciurba, A. (2018). The vulnerability to exploitation of women migrant workers in agriculture in the EU: The need for a human rights and gender based approach (external link) . European Parliament, Policy Department for Citizens' Rights and Constitutional Affairs Directorate General for Internal Policies of the Union.
Books
Triandafyllidou, A. (Ed.). (2016). Irregular migration in Europe: Myths and realities. Routledge.
Triandafyllidou, A., & Gropas, R. (2026). European immigration: a sourcebook. Taylor & Francis.
Book Chapters
Corrado, A., & Palumbo, L. (2021). Essential farmworkers and the pandemic crisis: Migrant labour conditions, and legal and political responses in Italy and Spain (external link) . In Migration and pandemics: Spaces of solidarity and spaces of exception (pp. 145-166). Cham: Springer International Publishing.
Geymonat, G. G., Marchetti, S., & Palumbo, L. (2023). (excel file) Migrant women workers in Europe: Forms of irregularity and conditions of vulnerability (external link) . In Research handbook on irregular migration (pp. 215-226). Edward Elgar Publishing.
Triandafyllidou, A., & Palumbo, L. (2023). (excel file) The governance of migrant smuggling and human trafficking: Institutions and networks (external link) . In Research handbook on the institutions of global migration governance (pp. 214-226). Edward Elgar Publishing.
Academic Works
Palumbo, L. (2017). Exploiting for care: Trafficking and abuse in domestic work in Italy (external link) . Journal of Immigrant & Refugee Studies, 15(2), 171-186.
Palumbo, L. (2023). (excel file) Vulnerability to exploitation through the lens of intersectionality: A critical analysis of instruments and approaches to identify and support exploited and trafficked migrants seeking protection (external link) . European Journal of Migration and Law, 25(4), 421-448.
Palumbo, L., & Sciurba, A. (2015). Vulnerability to Forced Labour and Trafficking: The case of Romanian women in the agricultural sector in Sicily (external link) . Anti-Trafficking Review, (5).
Palumbo, L., Corrado, A., & Triandafyllidou, A. (2022). (excel file) Migrant labour in the agri-food system in Europe: Unpacking the social and legal factors of exploitation (external link) . European Journal of Migration and Law, 24(2), 179-192.
Triandafyllidou, A. (2017). (excel file) Beyond irregular migration governance: Zooming in on migrants’ agency (external link) . European Journal of Migration and Law, 19(1), 1-11.
Triandafyllidou, A. (2025). De-centring migration governance: the role of narratives (external link) . Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies, 51(18), 4579-4597.
Triandafyllidou, A. (2022). The global governance of migration: Towards a ‘messy’approach (external link) . International Migration, 60(4), 19-27.
Triandafyllidou, A. (1998). National identity and the'other' (external link) . Ethnic and racial studies, 21(4), 593-612.
Triandafyllidou, A. (2022). Temporary migration: category of analysis or category of practice? (external link) . Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies, 48(16), 3847-3859.
Triandafyllidou, A., Bivand Erdal, M., Marchetti, S., Raghuram, P., Sahin Mencutek, Z., Salamońska, J., ... & Vintila, D. (2024). Rethinking migration studies for 2050 (external link) . Journal of Immigrant & Refugee Studies, 22(1), 1-21.
Transcript
Maggie Perzyna
Welcome to Borders & Belonging, the podcast that explores migration through bold research, new ideas, and stories that connect those findings to the real world. In this special episode, we're diving into research connected to the Horizon Project, Link4Skills. This initiative explores how shifting demographics, changing labour markets, and patterns of migration are transforming the demand for skills across Europe and its neighbouring regions around the world. Governments are trying to answer a difficult question: How do you prepare for a future workforce that may not be there? Aging populations, labour shortages, shifting migration patterns, and growing demands on care systems are forcing policymakers to think further ahead than ever before. But behind the statistics and projections are real people navigating these systems in real time. In this episode, we'll be joined by economist Sandra Leitner and demographer Michaela Potančoková. Together, they'll help us unpack how advanced labour force modeling is being used to anticipate future migration and labour needs. What these models can and can't tell us, and why the assumptions behind them matter just as much as the numbers themselves. But before we turn to the data and long-term modeling, we begin with a voice working directly with migrants and communities on the ground, someone seeing firsthand how policy decisions shape people's lives long before they ever appear in a forecast
Justyna Szalanska
I would highlight this super important role of academics in being the connectors between different sectors and being able to convey the message to present their research in a way that is understandable by everyone. This is a really big advantage of this project. Link4Skills, the team of Link4Skills, at least in Poland, is really reaching out to different kind of sectors, not only to non-governmental organizations, but also to business sector, and is trying to build these links that are missing,
Maggie Perzyna
Meet Justyna Szalanska, the manager of Skills Alliance Poland, a civic organization that supports refugees in acquiring new skills, increasing their employability, and subsequently improving their chances of successful integration. After participating in a workshop about the Link4Skills Navigator, a digital tool designed for sifting through labour market data, trends and possible solutions, Justyna, that believes there's tremendous potential in the resource, particularly for migration researchers.
Justyna Szalanska
In the non-governmental sector. We do not have so much time to dig into some very complicated and sophisticated tools, so this kind of connecting with other sectors in the situation of Link4Skills Navigator workshop is like really great practice. I think it is important because this kind of knowledge is something that our work of non-governmental organizations and all other organizations that work with refugees, migrants, and so on, should start with. Because our work should start with data, with evidence. Our work should be driven by knowledge, and that's why I think that this kind of reaching out to sectors or to organizations that really work with people, really work with refugees, and should know what are the needs and what is the situation, and what is also the macro level situation with migration and refugees is really, really important. And I think it was great to see how this knowledge, or how this tool, in terms of Link4Skills navigator, is being built. When we use some tools, sometimes we take it for granted, but having this knowledge, how this tool was built, I think, is an added value to our work, because we know that the data is credible. We know that actually the data was somehow pre-analyzed before it went to the Navigator, so that's why it is like super important for us.
Maggie Perzyna
Before joining Skills Alliance Poland as a manager in late 2025 Justyna spent nearly a decade researching the experiences of forcibly displayed people. Despite working on several major research projects and serving as a consultant, Justyna yearned for additional ways to make a more meaningful impact.
Justyna Szalanska
What has driven me to take this position, I think, was to have a stronger or bigger social impact. 10 years ago, I started my job in academia. I work on different projects, mainly focused on refugees, migration, refugees, reception, and integration in Poland, but also in other countries of Europe, and what I saw in this project was that their impact was limited, and of course this impact was limited because of many different reasons, but one of them was that in academia I didn't have enough time to reach out to stakeholders beyond academia, and actually I think that it was a very big limitation to the impact of the research after this period in academia. I started to look for a job that is within non-governmental sector, because I just needed this, you know, the feeling of having this impactful role and this opportunity. Well, it appeared to me it was perfect match and perfect fit for what I was looking for.
Maggie Perzyna
While Justyna isn't a policymaker, she believes the Link4Skills Navigator can be a valuable asset for those who are designing laws.
Justyna Szalanska
I think that this kind of tool is actually something that is super needed to policymakers, because it provides this macro level view, and they often need this kind of view to design a new policy, to design a new law, but also to prevent some situation to happen. This Link4Skills Navigator tells us what kind of skills partnership we have between countries. Having this knowledge, like how these partnerships can be built, they exist, and on the other hand, in what kind of pair of countries they do not exist, should tell policymakers how to fill these gaps. For the policy makers to see this macro level situation and to be able to predict the situation also, because the tool actually includes this kind of possibility, because it shows us how this, you know, demography will develop, how the skill or need for skills will develop, and the only thing is to get this tool see the predictions and design laws, design partnership agreements that could actually prevent some negative outcomes of these predictions.
Maggie Perzyna
As someone embedded in communities that her research is founded on, Justyna has a ground level view of what is happening. This includes the misconceptions and challenges that migrants face, particularly in Poland.
Justyna Szalanska
What we can see now, what is the current situation in Poland? We, I think, experience two kinds of realities. The first reality is related to this macroeconomic data or related to the condition of the overall economy, and Poland is doing really well on this. We have really good economic growth, so on this level the situation looks really good. But on the second hand, we have like another reality with a lot of displaced people in Poland, with a lot of refugees from Ukraine, with a lot of economic migrants, and what this tells us is that we have very strong anti-migrant and anti-refugee narratives in Poland, and these narratives share this perspective on what migrants and on what refugees should do or could do in Poland, and let's say majority of the society, they're perceived as non-skilled workers. They are perceived as someone who can take non-skill job that Poles do not want to do. Therefore, the situation is like really, really difficult for organizations like mine, like non-governmental organizations that are actually try to support people, trying to build some situation for them, so they can live on the highest possible level of quality of living. A lot of refugees from Ukraine have this higher education, they are like very well-skilled people, but on the other hand, majority of people do not want refugees or migrants to have high skill jobs.
Maggie Perzyna
While analyzing global skills shortages, is an ongoing process for researchers like Justyna, removing the barriers to knowledge that lead to meaningful change is an important step in the right direction. Tools like the Link4Skills Navigator offer a practical means of sifting through real-world data in hopes of mapping out a better future. Many thanks to Justyna Szalinska for offering her insight and perspectives about the Link4Skills Navigator tool. Sandra Leitner and Michaela Potančoková are joining me today to help unpack how labour force modeling works and what it can reveal about the future of migration and work. Sandra is a Senior Economist at the Vienna Institute for International Economic Studies, where her research focuses on labour migration, demographic change, and the long-term effects of migration across Europe and the Western Balkans. Michaela is a Senior Research Scholar at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis, specializing in demographic modeling and labour force forecasting. Welcome to you both.
Sandra Leitner
Thank you for having me.
Michaela Potančoková
Same here. Thank you for having me.
Maggie Perzyna
So, let's get started with some context. What exactly is labour force modeling, and what do these models help us to understand? Sandra, maybe let's start with you.
Sandra Leitner
So, labour force modeling is, in fact, the use of statistical, economic, and demographic models to better understand how people participate in the workforce. Also, over time, workforce is defined as individuals who are either employed or are actively seeking employment, so unemployed actively seeking employment. And as an economist, we subsume this under the heading of labour supply. We try to understand this how many people will be working in the future? How labour supply also labour demand develop over time? Which industries will need more workers in the future? The role of immigration in this context, and as an economist, of course, I also want to understand the factors behind why people decide to basically start being employed so about the role of wages, education, automation, aging of the population, and other macro trends. I think most importantly is also to bring labour supply, labour demand together to see whether there are labour shortages and the timing of labour shortages, because it has important ramifications also for the macro economy and economic growth in general.
Maggie Perzyna
Michaela, anything to add?
Michaela Potančoková
Yes, a demographer, I would only add that we use more different tools, and we focus more on the characteristics of the workforce, because labour force participation is often linked to gender, age, where people come from, what is their situation of their life cycle. Demographic modeling has been very much focused on specifically looking into labour supply, the connection to labour demand is something that we've been exploring more recently. We do it from the lens of kind of taking this heterogeneity of the population, so how what are the differences in demographic and labour market behaviours of different groups within the populations, and then with this mathematical model, such as code component models or micro simulations, we can try to simulate what would happen if these trends continue in the future from the past, or if there would be any interventions implemented how this can reshape the volume and human capital of the labour force, also with respect to migration.
Maggie Perzyna
Sandra, when you create a model about the future workforce, what kinds of information or assumptions go into it?
Sandra Leitner
Well, since I'm an economist, I think my model is a bit simpler than the models that demographers use, so from a labour supply perspective, we have, I think, the most important demographic aspects in there. So we look at the workforce, so those aged 15 to 64 and how they develop, so that automatically brings demographic change into the play. And then we have the activity rates from a supply side perspective, and the demand side is even simpler, which we model in terms of GDP growth, and then we take a certain factor that translates GDP growth into labour demand, and the nice thing about those very simple models is that you automatically have all the aspects in there that could be modified to also bring policy recommendations into the picture, and as I said, it's an economics perspective, so it's, I think, much simpler than what Michaela is doing in her research.
Maggie Perzyna
So, we've talked a lot about the different variables that you model. What surprised each of you when you first started looking at these long-term labour force projections, Michaela?
Michaela Potančoková
As a demographer, like one thing that really surprised me when I started working more with labour force data - and this is not related to long-term projections - surprised me how big gap is in labour force participation of immigrant origin women, like especially from certain world regions to native-born women, and this also was surprising for me to see that these labour force integration trajectories are relatively slow, and then basically, even those have the highest education, so the highest human capital never really catch up to the native women. So, this shows that there are many more barriers for these women to really participate in the labor market, and of course, then in our scenarios, we can simulate how would the world look like if these barriers were removed? Right?
Maggie Perzyna
Sandra, you've been studying labor migration in the Western Balkans and the EU. What do you think is misunderstood about why people leave the region in the first place?
Sandra Leitner
Well, as an economist, of course, I look at it through an economics lens, and we tend to use models that also have factors that are related to economic aspect, but we turn a blind eye to other aspects, and I think what I have learned when looking at emigration from the Western Balkans is that there are other factors, but economic factors that are at play here, specifically political factors. So, what research shows, including our own research, is that people tend to leave because there is a high level of corruption, because there is high level of political uncertainty, and also what I found interesting, and that's related basically to the political domain, is to see that people also leave because public services are of low quality, so be it health services, or be it education services, and it's also interesting to see that the segment of the population that's most mobile, so the younger population is the one that's most sensitive to these political issues, and there are basically the means of the paper key drivers behind their intention and actual immigration, specifically towards the EU.
Maggie Perzyna
What can modeling help us see about the future that would be much harder to understand without it? Michaela?
Michaela Potančoková
If the world as we know now continues, and how it would unfold if it's little different, right? And the models help us to kind of simulate it. Without the modeling. It might be more difficult to kind of disentangle what is actually the structural change, the long-term change from more short-term cyclical changes, and these structural long-term trajectories are very important to prepare for the long term societal shifts, right? And what we can do, because in demographic modeling we have to consider a lot of different trends and how they relate to one another, such as changes in the family, changes in longevity, changes in human capital, and we can then change some of these assumptions about these changes and look what would be the outcomes. And what I think is also important with these different kind of simulating these possibilities is to also kind of detect what would not change, because that helps us as societies, and I think also to policymakers, kind of understand what you cannot run away from, what you have to actually consider, and we are not predicting, because no one can do that, right, we, we don't know we are looking at the future from our standpoint now. We have to simplify in the models, of course, some things, but we can then explore potential responses, simulate them, and sometimes we would see that actually maybe the response wouldn't be sufficient, especially this I think is related a lot about, like, misconceptions. How migration often works, playing with these different what's called parameters in modeling can really see if something would have a sufficient effect or not.
Sandra Leitner
What I always find interesting is because in the policy context, migration is sometimes seen as the panacea, specifically for the EU, and how is your perspective? Because our models don't show it, they basically show it makes a huge difference, but nonetheless labour and skill shortages are still there. So, what's your take on it? What's the role of migration? Is it able to address some of the ills?
Michaela Potančoková
Migration is often seen like a kind of tool that can fix many things. First, it was like, can it fix population aging, and as demographers, we've been saying since I think at least 20 years that it cannot. It's not a panacea, and I think what is sometimes getting lost in this, and what is often focused scenarios, is that when we are starting to simulate, for example, if we do simulations from like the pre-COVID times, there's a lot of focus on being more selective in terms of migrants, in terms of their human capital characteristics that are more associated with high labour force participation, but the thing is that at this stage of the societies where sometimes more than 20% or one quarter of the society has migration background, or are migrants. You cannot focus just on the newcomers. A lot of the focus should be about how you can integrate these people effectively. What we are looking at, the demographers' models is like all kind of immigrants, because migration is not only labour migration, and people are coming with their families or their family reunifications, and people are coming through different pathways into our societies, and then understanding that these people are coming also often with dependents, so it's not realistic to expect that if you, as a policy maker, draft these many migrant workers to these jobs, that it's going to fix the problem. These kind of feedbacks, I think, we can see more when we do this kind of demographic modeling, where we take society as a whole.
Sandra Leitner
Are you also able to model segregation and segmentation, so people getting stuck in certain segments?
Michaela Potančoková
Not specially, but what we looked into was kind of equity, like social mobility scenarios, in terms of achieving equity in different outcomes. So, achieving equity in participation in higher education, in terms of equity, in terms of labour force participation, and you can kind of layer them, and we see that, so we can play in our models with what if there was a stronger social mobility, what if children from immigrants from low who have themselves like low educational attainments, if their children have much higher social mobility and they achieve higher education, what would be the outcomes for them? As Sandra said, we can like switch on and off, or like tweak different parameters, we can kind of layer these dimensions of social inclusion, right? We can start with just education, but then indirectly it has effect, because we know that highly educated people participate more in the labour force and often to older age. This has then the than the effect in the overall projections into future, right? Playing kind of analytically with different components and different assumptions on different levers on different variables can help us understand, like, what would be the outcomes if this changes in a certain way.
Maggie Perzyna
There's often a gap between what researchers are finding and what policymakers actually implement. Why is it so difficult to translate this kind of long-term evidence into real policy action? Sandra?
Sandra Leitner
I think this is one of the essential questions, and I think it's a very multifaceted issue. It's a question of translating the results to make it accessible to policymakers. So, it's a question of also for us translating it into a language that's understandable, which has to be very clear and very structured. I think the research community is very active, but uses lots of outcomes and lots of results and policy recommendations, so there is lots of "quote unquote noise" out there, which needs to be identified from the policymakers' perspective, needs to be digested and ideally translated into policies, and I think also from the EU's perspective, for what is also important to mention is that the whole process of coming up with an EU policy that's eventually translated in the national policy is a very time-consuming process involving many actors that have, of course, their own interests or represent certain interests, and it can take years before a proposal from the EU Commission is actually passes through all the all the premia and becomes EU law, and in this process also the scientific community plays a role, because it makes some impact assessments along the way, but in essence, I mean it's a consensual thing, so you have different interests coming together, different inputs coming together, certain readings that need to be repeated, and it might take five years, six years, seven years before a proposal from the Commission is actually turned into an e-policy. There were some amendments needed. You might find your policy recommendations watered down, and honestly, I don't follow what my policy recommendations, where they end up specifically when it takes 5,6,7 years, and when it's watered down, so it's very difficult to follow how your recommendations are actually translated into policies. I just hope that at one point or another that very relevant policies are taken up by the Commission, which I'm aware they are. They are also aware of what, what we are doing. It's just a question of sifting through all the information, and then turning something into something that's acceptable for very different players in the EU, and I think that's why we sometimes have the impression nothing's happening, because it's such a lengthy process, and my experience is the more directly you speak with policymakers, the higher the chances are that you get your message across. So, ideally, you have projects where you have policymakers involved right from the beginning, or you're commissioned by policymakers to do a certain research, because then you really get to interact, understand each other, also, and have potentially a direct impact on policymaking, but at least it's my experience.
Maggie Perzyna
So, maybe just building on what you just said, Sandra, when you look 20 or 30 years ahead, what do you hope policy makers start taking seriously that they're underestimating today?
Sandra Leitner
This brings me back to my migration background, and also my focus on the Western Balkans. I think what is pretty much misunderstood is the fact that EU policymaking also has consequences for other countries. I do see EU policymaking very egoistic in some contexts, specifically when it comes to labour shortage or skill shortages. So, they basically implement policies that would facilitate cross-border mobility, migration, etc. but what they do not take into account that this labour comes from somewhere, and specifically in the EU context, and in the Western Balkan EU context, this is of a permanent nature, so people leave the Western Balkans permanently. The EU has basically no concept of taking into account that it has ramifications for the sending countries, and I think at one point or another it will backfire, specifically once the Western Balkans start entering the European Union, becoming members of the European Union, because at that point you might have depleted the region of labour of the workforce, and then you would have to invest in bringing people back in, investing in, I don't know, industrial policies, human capital policies, education policies, and basically start from scratch, just because you were hungry for labour to start with, and ignored the ramifications it had for the origin countries.
Maggie Perzyna
Michaela, same question for you. When you look 20 or 30 years ahead, what do you hope policymakers start taking seriously that they're underestimating today?
Michaela Potančoková
I think that it's already starting. I think it's not 20 or 30 years ahead. I think what already I see as starting is kind of focused more shifting to kind of this fortress Europe narrative, like we don't want certain types of migration in the world where there would be more competition for certain skills and talent, different geopolitical challenges that the world is facing. This is not going to go away, and like there would be, in my view, more kind of competition for talent, and what might be the European, especially EU policymakers, say like taking a bit for granted is that there will be always this pool of immigrants who are motivated to go to work in Europe. That Europe will stay attractive to them, but there would be, in fact, in my view, in future a lot of competition for migrant labour, and that's why it's kind of focused on retention policies is going to be very important, and maybe this is something that would be nice for conversation with Sandra. So, when we went to this more linked supply demand modeling, what surprised me is how to link actually the labour demand to the economy, like how it really works. It's always tempting and easy to do some linear extrapolation of the trends, but like we know that there will be a lot of shifts.
Sandra Leitner
In response to that. I mean that the labour demand side, and I think that that's the advantage I have as an economist, I can be very ignorant when it comes to composition effects and other issues that you are basically dealing with. We are basically using GDP growth. We know that GDP growth at some point will translate into new jobs that will be created, so we just take it as a fraction of GDP growth will translate into labour demand. And then I can again be very ignorant, I would just do a linear extrapolation, but I do think that even the very simple models already show some quite, I would say, even shocking results. When we brought the two sides together, we start with a prior, you start with hypothesis, you start testing, and you have some expectations, and suddenly you see something very different popping up, and you're like, why? You didn't expect that suddenly this country pops up as a country that has that is that is bound to have labour shortages in the next year, so how can it be? And that's when I basically found that the majority of the new member states with the EU 13 countries, they will have very imminent labour shortage issues, but then I was also surprised to find Germany amongst the Western European countries or the old EU member states countries, that was the first one in line to have, like, a very imminent labour shortage situation, and I was shocked, and that's when I started looking into the demographic aspects of it, and that was very interesting for me to see, because I never caught this policy discussion, I found it already starting in the early 1980s that fertility rates came down quite substantially in Germany, and they keep coming down, so that's basically a result of low fertility rates and not migration, it's fertility, and what I find shocking is that when you look at the EU, I mean, Germany is such an important one of the core economies in the EU, so if Germany is starting to struggle from an economic perspective that has ramifications for the entire EU. So, that was one of the shocks that I had back then. I still don't know what to do with this information. I tried to bring it forward, but it doesn't quite resonate. So, I'm not quite sure what your take is on this, whether you find something similar, whether you have a different aspect, different view on these things?
Michaela Potančoková
I think for demographers this is more clear, because this is what we call population momentum, and we know that it's about, like, also the cohort sizes, because even if you increase fertility now, you would see some effects only on labour force only in about 25 years, and even if fertility as a rate increases, but you have small cohorts of mothers, it doesn't mean that the number of births increases necessarily, right? What is interesting is really how a lot people talk about, like Western Europe, where, for example, our modeling shows that the size of labour force wouldn't be shrinking that much in next 40 years, because there is actually quite substantial migration, and this many of these countries, but what is very striking, there is a lot of actually migration dynamics and a lot of labour mobility with urging countries that are aging much more rapidly than the destinations. Even if you, for example, fix the migration rate from these countries, you will necessarily see in future already in about 20 years from now sharp decline of potential labour migrants because simply people of young adult age who are most mobile there would be very small cohorts in these countries and this is when we talk about Romania when we talk about the Balkan countries, when we talk about Poland, when we think about, like, the future of this kind of labour mobility, these countries will also have shortages themselves, and this, like, intersection of low fertility and migration will have very hard impacts, and is making also, like, the structural reforms much more difficult.
Maggie Perzyna
Thank you both for your time. Sandra, thank you so much. Michaela, thank you so much.
Maggie Perzyna
Thanks so much to Sandra Leitner and Michaela Patanjakova for joining me today. And thank you for listening. This episode was produced by Toronto Metropolitan University journalism student Kristian Cuaresma, alongside executive producer Angela Glover. Special thanks to the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council and CERC Migration for making this conversation possible. If you've enjoyed Borders & Belonging, follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and share your thoughts with us on LinkedIn. For more on today's conversation, check out the show notes. I'm Maggie Perzyna. Thanks for listening.