Season 4, Ep. 12:

Maggie Perzyna  

Welcome to Borders & Belonging, the podcast that explores migration through bold research, new ideas and stories that connect those findings to the real world. This season, we're talking with migration scholars whose ideas have left a lasting mark on the field, then we dig deeper to uncover the past that brought them here, the turning points, lived experiences and insights that shaped the theories redefining how we understand mobility, borders and belonging. Each scholar has been asked to nominate an up and coming researcher whose work they admire in the chat, established voices and emerging thinkers come together in conversation to explore the connective tissue between the past, present and future of migration studies. From the personal to the political, from theory to practice, these conversations uncover not just what our guests study, but how their lives and work have helped shape the field and where they see it heading next. This episode takes us into the policy side of migration, how it's governed, how it's experienced, and how ideas of identity and belonging shape the systems people move through. At the center of this conversation is Anna Triandafyllidou, one of the leading voices in migration research today and director of the newly launched Global Migration Institute at Toronto Metropolitan University. Anna now lives in Toronto, but her story begins in Athens, Greece, where the foundations of her work start to take shape. Growing up in Athens, in the 70s and 80s, Anna comes of age during a time of change, but just as important is what's happening at home. Both of her parents are lawyers, and the way they share work and family isn't something she sees everywhere around her.

Anna Triandafyllidou  

Both my parents had gone to university, which I believe for their generation, for my mother's generation, that was unusual. So, my mom was a lawyer and my dad was a lawyer. Later in life, I realized what was exceptional was that my mother was a lawyer. Many of my friends and classmates had mothers who were working but not who had been to university and were professionals in their own rights. So having her as a role model and also having my father as someone who was totally at ease and totally supportive of my mother having her own career. I was a teenager in the 80s, and it was a very different time compared to today. So, for instance, we were doing a lot of public rallies, a lot of protests in favor of peace and against nuclear armaments, which suddenly are becoming a concern these days, but which had been for a long time forgotten. Another aspect was that Greece in the 80s was still a relatively homogenous society. So of course, there was historically diversity, ethnic, linguistic, religious, but it was very much downplayed. You wouldn't learn about it at school, you would only learn about it at university. And of course, if you were doing social sciences only, and it was a very xenophile country, so it was a very different time compared to the 90s.

Maggie Perzyna  

With her parents serving as inspirational trailblazers, it makes sense that Anna passionately fought for her own independence during her teenage years. She wasn't waiting for opportunities to come to her. She was pushing for more, testing her limits and figuring out what she could take on. That drive shows up early on in the way she talks about going after what she wants and making it work on her own terms.

Anna Triandafyllidou  

I think I was a very active and opinionated child. I had finished my French language course, and I wanted to do an advanced course that was really very intensive, and my parents were like, really, can you handle that? And I had to go to the center of Athens, which was a bit far from our neighbourhood, two busses to take, but I insisted, and I think I had the trust of my parents, so I was really fighting for my independence, not that my parents were not allowing me to be independent. But of course, when you're a teen, you have to be against you know your parents or against the system. So, I started working full time as soon as I started university. So, I did all sorts of odd jobs, from tourism to phone operator to working for an insurance company, to teach in English to, you know, you name it. And I think for again, for middle class Athens, that was not something that kids do. So, it's almost like your parents feel why isn't the pocket money enough what I'm giving you? I explained to my parents I really wanted my own money, and that was also something that they had instilled in me, that this is important. 

Maggie Perzyna  

It was something of a bucket list item for Anna to study abroad at some point during her academic journey. Though Anna's career later takes her all over the globe, one of her first traveling experiences holds a special place in her heart.

Anna Triandafyllidou  

The other thing perhaps, which of course, grew further with my undergrad was the wish to travel abroad and the wish to study abroad after my first degree. My first real trip abroad was when I was 18 with two of my girlfriends. We did InterRail. I believe it still exists. I'm not sure if young people do it, but it was a one month voucher that you could take any train across what was then Western Europe. So, it did not include, for the most part, Central Eastern Europe. It started including it after 1989. Although, for instance, at the time already Prague or Budapest were well known destinations. But like we did it twice actually, when we're 18 and when we were 19, to take a month in late summer and travel one time through southern Europe and all the way to Spain, and the other time again through Italy, going up to France and Belgium. These were great memories of trips. It was no airline, like it was all trains, and it was, you know, night trains with the cheapest compartment. So, it was a whole, you know, way of slow traveling.

Maggie Perzyna  

Whether it was for an undergrad or her PhD, the institutions Anna studies at heavily influence how she sees diversity, especially when it comes to how the political and psychological systems can affect minorities.

Anna Triandafyllidou  

I was a Marxist by ideology. I mean I still am someone who is very much in favour of the communist ideal, although, of course, it's been shown to have many problems in its practical application. But I was very interested in how society works. I also do remember that one of my best exams was a political economy exam where the Professor basically was teaching Marxism, and I got the full marks for that. But then I became interested, particularly in social psychology and how minority parties behave, and not ethnic minority parties, but political minority. So, ideological minority parties, like at the time, the Greens and fast forward, then I applied directly for a PhD, which I know is unusual today, but at the time, it was not necessary to have an MA to apply for a PhD. So, I applied, and I got accepted at the European University Institute in Florence, Italy, which is a European Research Center. It's not an Italian university, so it's a very particular place, and where everyone who is accepted to this day has a full scholarship that covers also their cost of living there. And that to this day is a program that accepts people proportionally in terms of the population size from all EU countries. So, for instance, at the time, Greece would have four people every year, but Italy would have 16, and Germany would have 22 and Ireland would have four, and Spain would have 15. So, it was a very special place. It was diverse by design. 

Maggie Perzyna  

As Anna moves into her PhD, the world around her is shifting quickly. Changes across Europe are not just background noise. They're unfolding in real time and raising new questions about movement, identity and how societies respond. It's in this moment that our work starts to take a clearer direction, shaped by what she's witnessing firsthand. 

Anna Triandafyllidou  

During my PhD, early 90s, a landslide change happens in Europe where a lot of people affected by the impulsion of communist regimes. So, people from Central and Eastern Europe, start going to what had been Western Europe, but also to Southern Europe. So, countries like Italy, Greece and Spain that were emigration countries suddenly start receiving people in significant numbers, and these countries had no migration management policies and no migrant integration policies. They had diaspora policies. In my fourth and final year of my PhD, with another colleague that was also working on a different topic, we wrote a paper that became my first article published in a journal which was about xenophobia. So, we were saying how xenophobia is different from racism and how it relates to identity. Fast forward, I'm finishing my PhD. I applied for an internship at the European Commission. I spent a year in Brussels. I was working also for a research project, and in the meantime, I start working on national identity and what migration does to national identity, because it was happening in front of our eyes, how Greece turned xenophobic and actually racist. Perhaps the racism was latent, but it became obvious overnight, and I started working on that, and I apply for a postdoc at the London School of Economics, and I get accepted, and my academic career takes a turn ever since I've been working on migration.

Maggie Perzyna  

W hen Anna's journey takes her to North America, she finds herself adjusting in more ways than one. Moving between Canada and the United States gives her a new vantage point on diversity between the two neighbors.

Anna Triandafyllidou  

New York City was quite different, but if you ask me to compare the United States with Canada, and of course, since then, I've visited but I've never lived after that stint, I think Canada is more diverse. My feeling of New York City and of the US is the race relations is very much a strong imprint on the US society, much more than in Canada, where I think diversity is like multi-faceted diversity, and that was, if you ask me, what was like the first time I visited Canada was in Montreal in 1998 for a conference. I remember waiting for my friends at the airport who were arriving with another flight and thinking, my God, this is a really diverse place. And New York City, of course, it was a very different environment. Was also getting to know the academic culture of the US, which, again, is quite different from the European land. To give an example, we had this weekly or bi-weekly seminar of different fellows working on migration in different New York universities. And there is this habit where your supervisor or some more senior scholar introduces people when they are to present their paper, and they are so - they're using such superlatives, like this early career scholar is amazing, and that was not something you were doing in Europe. And I was feeling like, are these people that much better than me? Or is there here something different? Because never in Europe, you would start, you know, research seminar by saying, oh, this presenter is this Top of the Pops person? It's just you don't do it.

Maggie Perzyna  

Anna speaks openly about her early years in academia and what it takes to choose that path.

Anna Triandafyllidou  

I think crucial point for everyone who does a PhD, I believe, is towards the end of your PhD, you're so tired and so fed up and it's such a lonely process, even if you are in a very structured program, like I was, like, we were a community of 300 to 400 PhDs in four social sciences. So, everyone is having a scholarship, everyone is living in Florence. Everyone is every day at the buildings at the campus. So, it's a very structured program. And yet, by the end of your PhD, you're so fed up with your thesis that you think, I don't want to be an academic. I don't want to go into this career. And I think for me, this is a process you have to go through in a way that gave me a community, and the understanding that in a research project you work with others, you have to prove that you can do the research and write it and defend it in front of people. Another element, I think, that has been important is, I call it dynamism, but it is true that it involves a certain level of insecurity of a job. I've changed many positions. I've changed countries and cities, including after starting a family. And of course, there are times that you're worried that you're not getting your next job. You're feeling, you know, I have bills to pay. Is this the right path? For me at the end of the day, I've cherished those moments because I've seen the creativity and, you know, the resilience.

Maggie Perzyna  

Now in Toronto, Anna's work has come full circle in many ways, the moves, the changes, the risks taken along the way feed into how she leads her team. Anna takes pride in how her journey has led her to her current position, but what matters most to her is not just the research, but the environment she helps to create to make sure that others succeed.

Anna Triandafyllidou  

I'm happy that I was mobile. I wouldn't have wanted to have stayed in a place for 20 years, but I want also this to be a positive experience for my colleagues. Also people feeling that, you know, we are a team that cares for each other. Of course, success is important. I always remind our team, we have to be excellent. We have excellence in our title, we have to be excellent, and that comes through hard work. Hard work is unavoidable. You can't succeed just out of talent, that's what I believe. But at the same time that everyone feels supported and safe, and that if they're going through a moment, the team will support them, and someone will take their back and stand by them, and that will be reciprocated. I'm very mindful and I hope I'm succeeding in helping every person that works in our team to take several steps in their careers. It's the greatest thing for me that my colleagues early career or more junior and more senior would remember that and say, Yeah, we had a great time there.

Maggie Perzyna  

Anna describes her career path as unconventional, but over time, she's found a sense of direction that isn't tied to any one place or any one way of doing things. Ultimately, to Anna, the measure of her success isn't just about titles or publications, but the community of scholars she's building along the way.

Maggie Perzyna  

We've just heard how Anna Triandafyllidou's path into migration research took shape, and how it influences her work today. Now joining the conversation is Letizia Palumbo, a researcher at the Department of Philosophy and Cultural Heritage at Ca'Foscari University in Venice. Letizia's work focuses on migration governance and labour rights, examining how policies shape migrant experiences across countries. Thanks so much for joining me today. 

Letizia Palumbo  

Hello Maggie. Thank you for having me. 

Maggie Perzyna  

So, let's start with a bit of an overview. When you look at migration governance right now, what feels most out of step with how migration actually works in practice? Anna, let's start with you. 

Anna Triandafyllidou  

The main issue with migration governance is that it is predicated on categories that are black and white. They're supposed to define phenomenon processes in a very clear-cut way. This belongs to here, this belongs to there. And actually, migration in real life is very complex, and it's all about the nuances and the overlaps and the experiences of people. So, even the most basic distinction between who has legal status and who doesn't. It's a continuum, but most policies assume it's an on and off thing. Similarly, who is an economic migrant, someone moving mainly for better work, better income, better education, and who is the humanitarian migrant and asylum seeker? Again, the motivations usually are a combination. So, some people move under not very high constraints, so they're mainly voluntary migrants, and some people move because they're completely forced. But even when you're forced to move, when you're fleeing danger or persecution, there is a degree of agency. You decide where you go. All these nuances are not, unfortunately, or for the most part, they're not covered in migration governance and in policies. And I think that's the main issue. A second issue, I think, is that migration is a transnational issue. So, to govern migration, you need country of origin, country of destination, country of transit, and a range of stakeholders. And still, most of our models on migration governance are predicated on the state.

Maggie Perzyna  

We hear a lot about national identity in conversations around migration. Letizia, how do you see that discourse shaping policy around migration?

Letizia Palumbo  

Dominant public discourses often frame migration in, let's say, alarmist terms, sensationalistic narratives or portraying it as a form of threat, and shaping migration policies accordingly. And when migration is seen as something that challenges identity or creates risks, policy of course, tend to become more restrictive in a way. And these, of course, risks overlooking, first of all, the as Anna was saying before, the real needs, motivation vulnerabilities of people who decide to migrate, so the complexity of their position or their agencies, or their situations of vulnerability and at the same time, these also contribute, of course, to affecting and undermining commitments to inclusion and the protection of fundamental rights of migrant people.

Maggie Perzyna  

Anna, you've worked in different countries and policy environments. What stands out to you when you compare how different places approach migration?

Anna Triandafyllidou  

I've lived in different countries in Europe, so I'm originally from Greece. I spent the longest, perhaps part of my life and my adult life in Italy. But I've also lived in Belgium, Britain for a short stint in the United States. And I think it's fascinating how different it is, and even how it changes in time. The time that I lived in Britain, so that was the mid-late 90s. It was a very different Britain than, unfortunately, what we have today. There is certainly a big difference between Europe and Canada. I at this point, I wouldn't say North America, although before I would have said because the U.S. is probably going to pass on its own. To put it in a in a very succinct way, in Canada, we see migration as a good thing. So, migration is part of nation formation, and of course, there are challenges, and still there's discrimination and racism. This is not to say that these problems don't exist. In Canada generally, migration is a good thing. And in Europe, migration is the necessary evil. It's something that happens, and since we cannot avoid it, we'll have to govern it somehow. Or we know all of European countries are facing significant demographic decline. So, migration is one aspect that can reverse partly that. But again, it seemed like there's a necessary evil as as if it were something that upsets the normal course of things. But then I think what I've appreciated a lot during this last few years, I've had more opportunities to connect with colleagues, and for instance, I spent two months last year in South Africa and learned more from my colleagues on how migration is seen as, again, as a good thing, as part of growth, of development. So, it's a completely different mindset. And then looking at Latin America and Central America there's been, until recently, right now, it's a little shaky, but there's been, until recently, a very strong focus on rights, on a regional identity. So, the way Latin America has dealt with the Venezuelan crisis has been remarkable, because the people that have accepted, now we're talking about up to 6 million of Venezuelans who have left their country, but countries like Colombia, Peru, Ecuador, that were mainly emigration countries, are now hosting large numbers of Venezuelans in ways that in Europe, for instance, we wouldn't consider possible. So, that is one very important aspect, and the other one that I want to mention briefly is the connections, the collaboration between policy makers, researchers, media and civil society. So, I think in Canada, we do benefit from a high degree of openness of the government towards research and engagement with researchers. For instance, in Italy, as Letizia knows, is kind of my adopted homeland as well. I think it varies a lot between regions and between cities. There are cities where local authorities are very open to working with civil society and researchers, and there are cities that are very closed. It's really very mixed. And I do think, however, that this narrative about migration and the nation is very important in creating the context within which policy is implemented. 

Maggie Perzyna  

So just building on that, Letizia your work often looks at migration governance through this lens of labour and exploitation. How does focusing on labour reshape the way that we understand migration policy overall?

Letizia Palumbo  

I really think it's very important today to think about migration through the lens of labour regimes. I think it's necessary today, and I think it's necessary because it, in a way, shifts the focus from the borders to the realities of work and exploitation that shape migrants' material experiences. So, let's say the lens of labour or labour regimes highlights how migration policies are often strongly tied to linked to labour market demands, frequently often creating conditions that foster, enable, precarity and exploitation rather than preventing them. In a way, these perspectives, so the perspective of the labour regimes of the labour rights makes clearly visible the gap between, let's say, the economic needs and the protection of human labour rights, and shows, let's say, how migration governance is not only about controlling movement, but it's also about regulating, or try to regulating, the living and working condition of migrants, so the condition under which migrant people work and live. 

Maggie Perzyna  

Do you see tensions between economic inclusion, so the need for migrant workers in key industries and social or political exclusion. And how does that play out in practice? Anna? 

Anna Triandafyllidou  

Again, it plays out differently in different countries, because, for instance, in different European countries, there are levels of local inclusion, both social and at times, political, including, for instance, voting for migrant councils at the local level, or participating in trade unions, or voting in local elections, or standing for local elections, which help in migrant representation and involvement, and in that sense, for labour rights, as Letizia was saying. But in many of these countries, for instance, the path to citizenship is fraught with many difficulties and can be very discretionary. And for instance, in Canada, we have the opposite. So, once you become a permanent resident, your pathway to citizenship is pretty smooth. You have political rights with citizenship, but you also have full socio-economic rights with permanent residency. But in Canada, the problem is, you can hold a temporary permit, whether for work or for study purposes, and you can be economically included, but you have very limited rights. So, again, it's a little bit of a game of checks and balances. Again, there is a different narrative in Canada, where not just individuals, but also communities are welcomed and accommodated. While in most European countries, there's much more hesitation on that, and we know, I would say in Italy and in Spain and in Germany and in France, it's more about the individual being included. But traditionally, in the Netherlands, in Sweden and in Britain, it was much more also the community. And unfortunately, this has been undermined in recent years, you know, going back to this very old motto of the guest workers, like we want the worker, but we don't want the person. But let us be optimistic. I think it's just a bit of a struggle, and we need to keep working for a better and more inclusive future.

Maggie Perzyna  

Letizia, what do you think?

Letizia Palumbo  

There is a clear tension between the economic inclusion and social political exclusion of migrant people and the Covid 19 pandemic clearly revealed and highlighted it. In fact, in you know, in many contexts, in many countries, what we have seen, especially during the pandemic, but it's still something evident today, is that migrant workers are essential to key sectors such as care work, domestic work, agriculture, logistics, yet they are excluded from full rights, social protection, long term stability. And so this creates, let's say, a sort of structural condition of precarity, where migrant people are needed by the economy, but kept at the borders, at the margins of society, with limited condition of their living and social reproduction, as well as restricted, let's say, opportunities for their labour mobility. And this in turn, further increases and amplifys their situational vulnerabilities to exploitation and abuse. We really have to think, as scholars and as experts in migration field, that when we think about how to address this tension between the economic inclusion and the social and political exclusion, we really have to consider the fact that most of the people today, they are involved in these dynamics of exploitation or abuse, are also migrant people that have regular legal status. So, that means that having a legal status does not prevent them from being involved in dynamics of exploitation, and this means, in my opinion, that you really have to think that when we try to support the development and implementation of more effective and safe labour migration pathways or regularization schemes, we really have to think about the quality of residence permits that we are going to provide.

Maggie Perzyna  

So, looking across different countries, are there examples of governance models that better balance the labour needs, rights and integration. What can we learn from them?

Anna Triandafyllidou  

Yeah, I think there's no single country that gets it right. There's lessons to be learned, even sometimes from the countries that you wouldn't think are champions of good governance. For instance, a model that has worked well in the Scandinavian countries was the involvement of trade unions and the emphasis on employment as the way through which people integrate. Then, and I've seen it happening also in Italy, where trade unions have stepped in as the point of contact even of workers without status, and also where the trade unions became the training ground for those leaders of migrant communities that then went out of the trade union and built their own association of X community. So, I think for me, that is one important lesson. Another important lesson is you need to have a coalition of the willing. So, you need to have at least a couple of actors that are champions of good governance. Another important example is where cities have stepped sideways compared to their national government, to say, hang on, no matter what you say in the bigger picture, the local picture is, I need to make the city livable for everyone. And then, for instance, some cities, Toronto and Montreal are among those have declared themselves sanctuary cities. So, for instance, it's this principle of, don't ask, don't tell. So, if I'm accessing health services or education for my kids that they shouldn't ask me, although we know, in practice, that's a little bit more complicated, sometimes out of sheer ignorance, that people would ask all these details that a person with precarious status or with no status would be very uncomfortable to say. But for instance, we also know places like Barcelona or Turin in Italy that created city cards, I believe, also Bologna, which is the city where Letizia is based, that created city cards as a form of ID that would enable you to access many services, and also would give you a recognition of being, so to speak, a citizen of that city. Sometimes we just need to look at the glasses half full and look at those promising practices, and how can we scale them up? 

Letizia Palumbo  

From my specific experiences, based on my research, I can share that I took part in an institutional working group established in Ragusa in Sicily. So, in the south of Italy, which brought together a range of different actors and organizations. They try to address the dynamics, for instance, of labour exploitation and the forms of violence experienced by migrant women. And this experience, of course, was a challenging experience. Because, you know, working with different actors, both institutional and non institutional actors, is not easy. At the same time, it was an a very important example, I would say, a multi-agency and locally grounded work. Then if I think another good practice at local, always, local level. I can mention, for instance, one developed by the NGO ActionAid in rural areas of another region in the south of Italy. They are working to support migrant women by helping them acquire the skills and competencies needed to participate in institutional forums, contexts, and to speak for themselves about their conditions and their claims for rights of protection, which I think is very important also to consider. So the issue of representation of people, migrant workers, in particular, migrant women. So, these are just few example that, in my opinion, show how local, bottom up initiatives can, in a way, contribute challenging, restrictive, and stringent national migration policies, trying at the same time to balance different needs, including labour needs, rights and integration.

Maggie Perzyna  

Anna, how do you see your own work evolving in conversation with this next generation of researchers? What questions or directions feel most urgent to you moving forward?

Anna Triandafyllidou  

One important role that we have is to keep the good work going and help our colleagues move up the ladder and become leaders, both in academia and outside academia, in government and in civil society. One thing that concerns me, and Letizia has done some very important work there, and she's even come up with a concept that she presented that she presented in Toronto for a workshop, is the concept of 'poor work', and 'poor work' as a work that gives you money and the means to survive, but that is so exploitative that it invades all aspects of your life. You have no time for anything else. You have not enough money for something else, and in the end, you're reduced to just this person that is working to survive. And it is important, I think, to look at the bigger picture. So, I think one important thing that I want to, and I tried to do with the colleagues and particularly the next generation, is to say you need to zoom in to the particular case, but you need also to zoom out and say, how does this connect with broader dynamics in the economy and in society? And you know, Maggie, I have also a weekness for advanced digital technologies and how these impact those processes.

Letizia Palumbo  

I really think that a more realistic and effective approach to migration governance should start looking at migration as a complex, dynamic and structurally embedded issue, rather than something that can be fully controlled. And that means moving beyond emergency-driven and security-focused responses. And this, in my opinion, means considering the connection between migration policies and labour realities, ensuring safe and regular pathways, strengthening the protection of fundamental rights and investing in inclusion at local level, at national level, but as I said before, in a long term perspective, so it's really important to also consider the issue of the quality of the residence permit that migrant workers and migrant people in general can apply for. Residence permits that can guarantee them stability a long term perspective, and this means preventing people from being in vulnerable dynamics of exploitation and abuse, because if you are in a temporary situation, you are more exposed to dynamics of abuse and exploitation. And at the same time, it's very important incorporating a gender and intersectional perspective, recognizing how different forms of inequality shape people's experiences of vulnerability, and that means how recognizing the different needs that people have on the basis of their different situation of intersectional vulnerability.

Maggie Perzyna  

So, before we wrap up, we're going to do a quick lightning round. I'm going to throw out some questions and just give me the first thing that comes to mind. First question. Your favourite book? Anna?

Anna Triandafyllidou  

My favourite book is The Man of Good Hope of Johnny Steinberg. It's an amazing book because it brings together an incredible story with some sociological reflections. It's amazing.

Letizia Palumbo  

Letizia, I would probably say, Beloved by Toni Morrison. That novel really was fundamental for me, personally and also for my work as a researcher.

Maggie Perzyna  

What policy buzzword should disappear? 

Anna Triandafyllidou  

Oh, my God, illegal migration, that should disappear. Okay, I have another word that I would like to disappear, absorptive capacity. There's no such thing as an absorptive capacity. Yeah. So I totally dislike that.

Letizia Palumbo  

There are many bad words that disappear, in my opinion. One of them is certainly the term illegal. This term helps justify policies that violate fundamental rights of migrant people.

Maggie Perzyna  

Favourite place that you've ever done field work or research? 

Anna Triandafyllidou  

Okay, I would say favorite place where I've done field work was Florence.

Letizia Palumbo  

I really love to doing research in the rural areas with women migrant workers employed in the agricultural sectors.

Maggie Perzyna  

And what's one thing that we can't learn about you from your CV?

Anna Triandafyllidou  

My standard answer to this is my running that you know, Maggie, yes.

Letizia Palumbo  

I really enjoy taking care of plants, and I also have a great passion for interior design.

Anna Triandafyllidou  

Thank you, Maggie for this wonderful conversation. Thank you Letizia for making the time. This has been a great opportunity. 

Letizia Palumbo  

Thank you.

Maggie Perzyna  

Thanks so much to Anna Triandafyllidou and Letizia Palumbo for joining me today and thank you for listening. This episode was produced by Toronto Metropolitan University journalism student, Kristian Cuaresma, alongside executive producer Angela Glover. Special thanks to the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council and CERC Migration for making this conversation possible. If you're enjoying Borders & Belonging. Follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you, get your podcasts and share your thoughts with us on LinkedIn. For more information on today's conversation, check out the show notes. I'm Maggie Perzyna. Thanks for listening.