Season 4, Ep. 8:

Below, you find links to all of the research referenced by our guests, as well as other resources you may find useful.

Media

Emamzadeh, A. (2018, March 26). Acculturation and migration: Interview with Dr. J. W. Berry (external link) . Psychology Today.

Everything you always wanted to know about culture (external link)  | Saba Safdar | TEDxGuelphU

There is No Them, There is Only Us. (external link)  | Saba Safdar | TEDxGuelphU

Young, E. (2021, September 28). There’s surprisingly little evidence behind common beliefs about the best way for immigrants to adapt (external link) . Research Digest.

Books & Book Chapter

Berry, J. W. (2005). Acculturation (external link) . In Culture and human development (pp. 263-273). Psychology Press.

Berry, J. W. (2008). Globalisation and acculturation (external link) . International journal of intercultural relations, 32(4), 328-336.

Berry, J. W. (2021). Migrant acculturation and adaptation. Oxford textbook of migrant psychiatry, 52021, 311.

Berry, J. W. (2017). Theories and models of acculturation. The Oxford handbook of acculturation and health, 10, 15-28.

Harari, Y. N. (2024). Nexus: A brief history of information networks from the Stone Age to AI (external link) . Random House.

McFarlane, P., & Manuel, D. (2020). Brotherhood to nationhood: George Manuel and the making of the modern Indian movement (external link) . Between the Lines.

Manuel, G., & Posluns, M. (2019). The fourth world: An Indian reality. (external link)  U of Minnesota Press.

Safdar, S., Kwantes, C., & Friedlmeier, W. (2020). Wiser World With Multiculturalism. IACCP Conference Proceedings.

Sinclair, M. (2024). Who we are: Four questions for a life and a nation (external link) . Random House.

Wilson-Raybould, J. (2024). True reconciliation: How to be a force for change (external link) . Random House.

Wilson-Raybould, J., & Sinclair, M. (2019). From where I stand: Rebuilding Indigenous nations for a stronger Canada (external link) . University of British Columbia Press.

Academic Works

Berry, J. W. (2005). Acculturation: Living successfully in two cultures (external link) . International journal of intercultural relations, 29(6), 697-712.

Berry, J. W. (1997). Immigration, acculturation, and adaptation (external link) . Applied psychology, 46(1), 5-34.

Berry, J. W., Lepshokova, Z., MIRIPS Collaboration, Grigoryev, D., Annis, R. C., Au, A. K., ... & Ziaian, T. (2022). How shall we all live together?: Meta‐analytical review of the mutual intercultural relations in plural societies project (external link) . Applied psychology, 71(3), 1014-1041.

Berry, J. W., Phinney, J. S., Sam, D. L., & Vedder, P. (2006). Immigrant youth: Acculturation, identity, and adaptation (external link) . Applied psychology, 55(3), 303-332.

Ferguson, G. M., & Bornstein, M. H. (2012). Remote acculturation: the “Americanization” of Jamaican islanders (external link) . International Journal of Behavioral Development, 36(3), 167-177.

Ferguson, G. M., Costigan, C. L., Clarke, C. V., & Ge, J. S. (2016). Introducing remote enculturation: Learning your heritage culture from afar. (external link)  Child Development Perspectives, 10(3), 166-171.

Ferguson, G. M., Tran, S. P., Mendez, S. N., & Van De Vijver, F. J. (2017). Remote acculturation: Conceptualization, measurement, and implications for health outcomes. Oxford handbook of acculturation and health, 157-173.

Safdar, S. (2025). Bridging Borders: Navigating the Tapestry of Multiculturalism and Migration (external link) . Online Readings in Psychology and Culture, 8(1). 

Safdar, S., Lay, C., & Struthers, W. (2003). The process of acculturation and basic goals: Testing a multidimensional individual difference acculturation model with Iranian immigrants in Canada (external link) . Applied psychology, 52(4), 555-579.

Safdar, S., Lewis, J. R., & Daneshpour, M. (2006). Social axioms in Iran and Canada: Intercultural contact, coping and adjustment (external link) . Asian Journal of Social Psychology, 9(2), 123-131.

Scott, C., & Safdar, S. (2017). Threat and prejudice against Syrian refugees in Canada: Assessing the moderating effects of multiculturalism, interculturalism, and assimilation (external link) . International Journal of Intercultural Relations, 60, 28-39.

Scott, C., Safdar, S., Trilokekar, R. D., & El Masri, A. (2015). International students as ‘ideal immigrants’ in Canada: A disconnect between policy makers’ assumptions and the lived experiences of international students (external link) . Comparative and International Education, 43(3).

Thomas, E. F., Stothard, C., Besta, T., Akbas, G., Becker, J. C., Becker, M., ... & van Zomeren, M. (2025). Anti-immigration conspiracy beliefs are associated with endorsement of conventional and violent actions opposing immigration and attitudes towards democracy across 21 countries (external link) . Communications Psychology, 3(1), 66.

Maggie Perzyna  

Welcome to Borders & Belonging, the podcast that explores migration through bold research, new ideas, and stories that connect those findings to the real world. This season, we're talking with migration scholars whose ideas have left a lasting mark on the field. Then we dig deeper to uncover the past that brought them here, the turning points, lived experiences, and insights that shaped the theories redefining how we understand mobility, borders and belonging. Each scholar has been asked to nominate an up-and-coming researcher whose work they admire. In the chat, established voices and emerging thinkers come together in conversation to explore the connective tissue between the past, present, and future of migration studies. From the personal to the political, from theory to practice, these conversations uncover not just what our guests study, but how their lives and work have helped shape the field and where they see it heading next. 

Today, we're talking about what happens when cultures meet, not in theory, but in real life. In classrooms, neighbourhoods, workplaces and families, and we're asking a deceptively simple question, ‘how do people adapt when they move across cultural worlds, and what does that adaptation ask of them in return’? Our guest is Dr John Berry, Professor Emeritus of Psychology at Queen's University and one of the most influential scholars behind acculturation theory. His work reshapes how we understand integration, identity and the different paths people take, settling into new places. And for John, this is never just an academic question. It starts early in a place where differences are not subtle and where the boundaries between groups are drawn quickly and enforced loudly. As a child, John Berry's world shifted fast with a move to rural Québec. He found himself in a place where tensions around language, religion and belonging showed up in everyday life. It didn't take him long to realize who is accepted and who is pushed out.

Dr John Berry  

Immediately, I became aware of culture and cultural differences, and because of the Catholic, non-Catholic separation of schools, I wasn't allowed to go to the local school, which was both Catholic and Francophone, and had to take a public bus to an adjacent town where there was an English-speaking school. But in daily life in the village, I had encounters, one of which really struck me at the time, and still does, and that is, I was walking one day and met a French speaking person my own age, maybe about 10 or 12, who simply blurted out, the French are better than the English or the Jews. And I said, well, how do you know that? And he said, well, our priest told us so. This could have been an example of the 1940s antisemitism that was quite prominent in Québec at the time, but it stuck with me as not only a cultural difference, but expression of cultural or in this case, also religious hierarchy and the way people think about relationships between groups.

Maggie Perzyna  

Those divisions shape the rhythm of daily life. They shape who you see, where you go, and how connected you feel. For John, even simple things like friendship and community start to depend on unexpected barriers.

Dr John Berry  

It was isolated. There were no daily interactions with children my own age, outside of the family. I had one brother, and it was only at school that I was able to really interact with people because of this language, but also religious, and we might even call it ethnocentric, barriers within the community. And I think my parents understood that, and my mother also experienced it, because she stayed at home and had only a few interactions on a daily or regular basis.

Maggie Perzyna  

Over time, John finds something to help steady himself. He finds it on the water. Sailing gives him a rhythm that feels predictable, even when everything else around him does not. As his life expanded beyond Québec that connection followed. Whether it was Scotland, Australia, Africa, or anywhere else, his journey took him, the water always beckoned.

Maggie Perzyna  

Well, I grew up on Lake Saint-Louis with boats tied up to our dock. So, I've always been interested in being on the water. We had a shore, a rowboat and a sailboat, which I spent lots of times on. And when I came back to Canada, one of the reasons I chose Kingston was because of its sailing opportunities. I bought a boat a year later, and then about 15 years after that, I bought a bigger boat in France when we were on sabbatical there, and when we retired in '99, my wife and I had just built a house in the British Virgin Islands, and we had chosen the British Virgin Islands because it's the sailing capital of the world, and we acquired a boat there, which unfortunately ended up halfway up a mountain in the hurricanes of 2017 so we are now boatless there, but still manage to enjoy the water. So, in addition to sailing, I swim almost every day. I've never been in a pool. I always use natural bodies of water, the openness and the breeze, even when I'm on land, if there's a breeze, I go for it.

Maggie Perzyna  

John worked as a merchant seaman for several years, travelling all over the world, aside from collecting a wealth of experience, the people he meets along the way ultimately have the most lasting impact.

Dr John Berry  

Last year, I was on the ships. I was the engineer on a Fisheries Research Board vessel in James Bay and Hudson Bay. I was the only person on board who wasn't either a graduate student or a professor, and I observed that they had a pretty good life. So, I asked them how I could do the same, and they said, well, you got to go to university, sonny. And so, I started studying at night, but with the help of my then wife and support at Sir George Williams in the evening. I worked in a furniture factory, then in a glass factory, and had some fantastic teachers. So, it was a big stimulus for my moving in this particular direction.

Maggie Perzyna  

As a scholar, John is as accomplished as they come, but it's John's restlessness in pushing boundaries and braving unchartered waters. That remains one of his proudest achievements. 

Dr John Berry  

The climate was a bit awkward. In 1989 to '91 I chaired what I believe is the first university inquiry into racism, leading to what is now called DEI initiatives issued a report in '91 attempting to radically transform the university, and it was a bombshell. I had colleagues who didn't speak to me thereafter, some who publicly stated that if this report's recommendations were agreed to by the university, they would resign and go to another university that wasn't so involved in these issues. The report was called, "Towards diversity and equity at Queen's" and it had over 140 recommendations. It led to some changes but also led to more inquiry subsequently and now the student body, at least, is much more diverse.

Maggie Perzyna  

Going against the tide is written into John's DNA, but there's another aspect of his personality that's just as unyielding. He's a proud Canadian, and it shows in his work.

Dr John Berry  

I've always known that I was Canadian and carried that with me, so you're anchored in your own culture, your own society, which gives you a basis to engage with others. You can't be intercultural successfully unless you are, first of all, cultural in your own place in the world. Canadian orientation has always helped to erect a border between me and the big fellows to the south. So, I have never joined a US American Association. Ever go to their conferences, hardly ever read their journals, and I don't publish in their journals unless a US American colleague asked me to join them at a particularly interesting publication. And from the very beginning, I was told that you can't have a career unless you suck up to the big boys. And I said, well, let's see. And I remember when I was coming up for tenure, the head of the. Department said, well, you're doing fine, John, you're publishing. You're getting grants and teachings okay, but you really have to start playing with the US American game. And I said, "well, I'd like you to write me a letter that says, John, your teaching is fine, your research is fine, but at a Canadian university, you cannot get tenure unless you engage more with us American psychology. And then I'm going to take that to the press". And of course, he didn't write that letter, and then I got tenure. So, being Canadian has always been a fundamental aspect of who I think and know I am, and it always means being open to the world, except for the one place that really sits on us and oppresses us in so many respects.

Maggie Perzyna  

By the late 90s, John is teaching, travelling, meeting, researching, and barely stopping long enough to catch his breath, an opportunity for early retirement pops up for John. It didn't feel like an ending. It felt like a chance to focus more fully on the work and relationships that mattered most.

Dr John Berry  

One weekend, I taught until late Friday, hopped on the train, then on a plane, went to the Netherlands, arrived Saturday morning, had meetings, research meetings, all Saturday and Sunday and Sunday, late afternoon, came back, took the midnight train back to Kingston and taught an 8:30am class on Monday, which obviously was not a way to have a good life. When the opportunity came to take early retirement, I jumped at it, and there was really no transition except away from formal obligations. But everything else was positive. I was able to engage in work in Africa and Europe and other parts of the world, and since then, I've worked as visiting professor for short courses, mainly graduate courses, as well as conducting research internationally. So, that decision to retire was one of the better ones I've made in my life and allowed me to do more of what I wanted to do and less of what I didn't really enjoy.

Dr John Berry  

Every day, or at least every few days, I get a feed from Google Scholar, which lists articles that refer to my work. And what is increasingly apparent is that my ideas and research work is being attended to by people well outside the field of psychology, whether it's governance, whether it's corporate work, whether it's medicine, nursing, missionary work, people trying to fit into their new contexts all find some meaning in my ideas. And a lot in Malaysian, Indonesian, Russian, Chinese, Spanish articles are coming into this feed, which means that it's going beyond the intellectually narrow English-speaking world. So, that makes me happy, and it's what I'm proud of.

Maggie Perzyna  

When John reflects on what he's most proud of, it's not only his publications or awards, it's the community around him, family, friends and colleagues, and the fact that his ideas keep travelling, reaching far beyond the field where they began.

Maggie Perzyna  

For John, acculturation is not some abstract process. It's about real people finding their footing in new places and holding on to who they are while they do it across everything he's done, John keeps coming back to the same thing. Belonging is built through relationships. It's shaped by the spaces we enter, the barriers we run into, and the communities we create along the way.

Maggie Perzyna  

We've just heard how John's curiosity about cultural contact and adaptation evolved into the field defining work we now call acculturation theory. Now joining the conversation is Dr Saba Safdar, Professor of Psychology and Director of the Centre for cross cultural research at the University of Guelph. Saba's research builds on and expands John's ideas, exploring how newcomers and host societies shape one another and what belonging looks like in practice. Thank you both for joining me. 

Dr Saba Safdar  

Thank you for having me. 

Dr John Berry  

You're welcome 

Maggie Perzyna  

So, John, you've spent much of your career thinking about what happens when people and cultures meet. What experiences early on made you curious about these questions?

Dr John Berry  

The trajectory of my interests? Yes, actually start as a child. My family from Ontario had migrated before I was born to live in a small, rural French speaking village. We were the only year round English speaking family in that village, and so from the very beginning, I had intercultural contacts that made me aware of both differences and similarities, and then later during high school, I was able to work in bush with Indigenous people, cutting logs for paper mills, and then subsequently worked on ships, both in the St Lawrence and internationally, going to Africa and working in James Bay and Hudson Bay as an engineer on a research vessel. So, these encounters were seminal. They were foundational for what I was going to do when I started studying psychology.

Maggie Perzyna  

Saba, your own cross-cultural experiences shape how you approach this work. What moments or turning points stand out as shaping the way you think about adaptation and belonging?

Dr Saba Safdar  

One really big turning point for me was moving from Iran to Canada when I was 20. That was such a huge shift, new culture, a completely different education system, different social norms, even different climate. It really forced me to stop and think about how people adapt to a new environment. I remember feeling this mix of excitement and challenge. Like some moments, I felt really connected to people, and other moments, I felt completely isolated. That contrast made me really aware of what it actually takes to feel like you belong somewhere, and all of these experiences shaped the way I think about belonging. For me, it's not just a personal feeling. It is relational. It changes depending on the space and communities’ people are in. And overall, what I have learned is that adaptation isn't a one-time scale, it's ongoing process of reflection learning, and a lot of that is also staying open to change.

Maggie Perzyna  

John, your work gave us the big ideas we used to talk about how people adjust in new cultural settings. How has your view of that process changed as the world becomes more diverse and more connected?

Dr John Berry  

All societies are moving in the direction of greater cultural diversity, and indeed, I think most of them could now be called culturally plural. These changes have led to changes in how we understand intercultural contact and adaptation. I think the most significant one is that early understandings of the acculturation process focused just on two groups in contact, usually one dominant and one non-dominant. In the anthropological tradition, of course, they were primarily what we would call now Indigenous peoples. We now have a situation where a simple two group understanding of acculturation is no longer adequate. We have to take into account the multiple interactions that people have living in these increasingly diverse societies. I think the second major change has been the outgrowth of the notion in anthropology of cultural diffusion, people and societies don't have to be in direct contact with each other in order for changes to be induced by coming to know about these other cultures. This has led to the concept that Gail Ferguson has proposed, called "remote acculturation", where with internet and globalization and other forces people without substantial direct contact heavily can lead to psychological adaptation processes that can often be successful, but sometimes are sufficiently challenging that they are not successful. So, I think these are the two main changes in the field that have come up.

Maggie Perzyna  

Saba, so much of your work looks at how people adjust and how systems respond. What do you see on the ground when policies or institutions don't match the realities of how people actually settle in?

Dr Saba Safdar  

What I see on the ground is a real mismatch between policy and lived experiences. Policies tend to rely on broad assumptions about how people settle, but in reality, settlement is messy and highly contextualized. People navigate challenges in ways institutions don't always anticipate. I've done several studies on international students that highlight this point. Well, in one of those studies, we followed number of international students at two Ontario universities. Later on, we have done at universities outside of Ontario as well. And we looked at the students, international students as they moved from being students into workforce. Policy wise, this transition should be smooth. In fact, international students, until recently, were perceived to be ideal immigrants, but our finding showed a different story. Many students struggle with language competence. They felt employers viewed them as an administrative burden and encountered subtle and even explicit discrimination from employers. Many of these students didn't have access to the same labour market network that Canadian students have, and we have seen a similar pattern with immigrants, more broadly, immigrants frequently face barriers that aren't captured in some policy frameworks, like devaluation of foreign credentials, limited access to professional networks, or subtle forms of discrimination in housing and employment. And these are lived experiences or lived realities that can't be resolved with blanket assumption. When policies are based on idealized assumption rather than real experiences, people end up navigating systems that don't fit their realities and that slow adaptation and create feelings of exclusion. So, if Canada wants to remain a leader in international education, policymakers need to work more closely with universities, with employers, improving language communication support for international students, helping employers to understand the benefits of hiring international students and similarly, with immigrants as well, a close connection with settlement services, with employers, with housing all of those would help this smoother process of adjustment and anticipating some of the barriers that immigrants have.

Maggie Perzyna  

Adapting to a new place isn't neutral. Power shapes who gets welcomed and who's asked to change. John, how do you keep that in mind in your research?

Dr John Berry  

In the original framework that I introduced in the late '70s, in addition to the two core issues that have created the idea of strategies of assimilation, marginalization, separation and integration. There was a third dimension, and that was power. And the question in that framework was, "who gets to decide how individuals will pursue one of these different strategies?" "Who gets to decide whether someone will assimilate or segregate"? And of course, very often the power resides with the dominant group. This has led to an increased emphasis on people claiming that there is a missing side. I don't think there is a missing side, because from the very beginning, the conceptualization engaged with questions that resided with both the dominant and non-dominant components in the interaction. What is increasingly become clear is that no one remains in charge forever. We have heard political rhetoric that there is no mainstream in Canada, and I think that's fundamentally correct. And of course, over time, these relationships change. For a number of years, I worked in Moscow at the Centre for Intercultural Relations, and there we did a number of studies examining how, when the Soviet Union collapsed, the Russian speaking population, which had been dominant in those societies, they lost such power and the strategies for accommodating to these new realities have been studied with my colleagues, and it's been not an easy scene, because they were not always good bosses in the Soviet republics. So, the main point is that if you're in charge now, you probably won't be in charge in the future, and you'd better learn how to adapt to these new circumstances. And this is one of the new features of acculturation research.

Dr Saba Safdar  

That's such an important point. Adaptation is a neutral process. One recent study we were able to illustrate this nicely. We had Canadian participants read short newspaper style profiles of immigrants, and the profile varied by ethnic background of the immigrants. They were reading about either English, Nigerian, Iranian, or Chinese, by gender or by sexual orientation. And Canadians consistently, their response was that they rated immigrants highest on worth, trustworthiness, and competence. At the low end of that was the heterosexual Iranian and Nigerian men who received the most negative stereotypes. Interestingly, sexual orientation changed the picture for some groups, Iranian gay men receive one of the highest overall ratings. So, some sexual minority immigrants are judged more positively than their heterosexual counterparts, and sometimes this is not the case. Sometimes they were seen warmer and sometimes they were perceived more competent by looking at these layers generally, we can answer bigger questions, who gets welcomed? Who is expected to change, and how these power dynamics shape people's adaptation experiences? 

Maggie Perzyna  

Fascinating. John, you've said that it's not just newcomers who adjust, societies adjust too. What helps the society genuinely make room for new people and new ways of living?

Dr John Berry  

Much of the research on acculturation finds its roots in multiculturalism policy, and it's useful to look at what are the core features of that policy. One, of course, is the value attributed to maintaining cultural diversity in the society, generally and in its institutions. And the second issue, equally important, is proposing that intercultural contact and sharing are both essential for such a policy to work. If it's only diversity, then it leads to segregation, as European societies have discovered. If it doesn't also include the second component, that of interaction and sharing, then the outcomes will not be as intended, which is, of course, the integration of all people into society, which I refer to as the larger society. That's a phrase that was coined by an Indigenous leader, George Manuel, many years ago, to refer to the common civic and political framework within which we all attempt to live. And it doesn't mean just the one dominant way in a particular region. So, stemming from the multiculturalism policy, are some very key issues in the psychology of adaptation. One is the notion of confidence and security that is in the policy statement, only when people are confident and feel secure in their own cultural and personal base, in the plural society will they be able to accept those who are different from themselves. So, what needs to be done is to create situations that a sense of threat is avoided, and people have a place to feel that they can live the way they want to live. And of course, the other main feature is that contact and intercultural sharing is a psychological concept that has been studied for many years under the concept of the contact hypothesis, and that is, when people have opportunities to and engage in positive contact, then mutual positive regard, acceptance will result. So, just putting these two together, if there is no security and people experience discrimination, that turns out to be one of the most important negative predictors of positive adaptation. And the second, if there's no intercultural contact and sharing, then isolation leads to separation and segregation. And both of these would be contrary to the goal of a policy. 

Maggie Perzyna  

Saba, did you want to add something?

Dr Saba Safdar  

Yes, one of the exciting shifts I'm seeing is a move away from thinking about acculturation as one size fits all process. Researchers are increasingly looking at its dynamic. It is relational, it is context dependent. There is growing attention to how system and institution shape adaptation. So, I'm particularly intrigued by studies that examine this larger question, that look at power, inequality, social positioning, because it shows that who gets to adapt on their own terms, that is not equal for all immigrants and newcomers.

Maggie Perzyna  

You've both seen the study of acculturation morph and grow. What fresh ideas are you seeing that push the field forward? John?

Dr John Berry  

There is an increasing interest in not just immigrants but Indigenous peoples in many societies. A lot of my own work over the years has been with Indigenous communities in Canada, in Central Africa, with the small people, the Pygmy so-called, and with Australian Aborigines. And this focus on Indigenous people seems to have fallen off the radar when people discuss acculturation phenomena in particular, because these people are probably the least powerful, the most powerless in any intercultural contact situation. There is a plethora of books now in Canada by Sinclair and Judy Raybould-Wilson dealing with the issues of acculturation and negative contact. And I think the phrase that captures a way forward is we are all treaty people. It isn't just Indigenous people who signed the treaties. Others signed on behalf of those who are not Indigenous. And this raises the issue of, is there a missing side? No, we need to count everybody in the acculturation game. One of the other issues that we need to pay attention to is the rising attacks on diversity, equity and inclusion, so called DEI. It's happening in many societies, and it's happening also here in Canada and in our institutions. I think we have enough evidence, both conceptual and empirical, to establish that diversity, equity and inclusion are all good for societies, for institutions and for individuals, for us to make arguments in public to advance retaining these concepts without marshalling this evidence. I am afraid that politicians, particularly on the right, will increasingly dominate the discussion and lead to people beginning to believe that diversity, equity and inclusion are not important features of our societies. So, we have the evidence, we have the concepts we need now to fight in public for the adoption of these points of view.

Maggie Perzyna  

Saba, what fresh ideas are you seeing that push the field forward?

Dr Saba Safdar  

I like what John said, and I agree with those points. They are really important, particularly in terms of the EDI and what is happening in our society. In addition, I actually think one of the most exciting new directions in our field is the push toward genuine interdisciplinary. Migration and acculturation are far too complex to be understood through a single lens. We need sociology to unpack power and institution. We need psychology to understand identity and wellbeing, anthropology to capture lived experience, political science and economics to explain the structural forces at play, and even technology studies now because digital spaces shape belonging just as much as physical ones. So, when you bring these perspectives together, you start seeing a much fuller picture. It helps us understand not only how individuals feel and adapt, but also how policies, inequalities, community dynamics and even algorithm influence those experiences. To me that blending of method and theories is where the most interesting, most realistic insights are emerging.

Maggie Perzyna  

What do we still need to understand to get a fuller picture of what belonging looks like in today's super diverse, constantly changing world. John?

Dr John Berry  

Saba has hit the nail on the head with the need for interdisciplinarity in understanding the dynamics of intercultural contact and adaptation without this broad perspective, we have no hope of dealing with the issues that we are now facing through the parent rise of negativity in dealing with migration, in dealing with Indigenous relations. In dealing with international relations, more generally. The hate that is being generated increasingly online, but also in person, on the streets, in daily and encounters, antisemitism, Islamophobia, negative attitudes towards Indigenous rights and peoples. We really need to tackle this if our work is going to be anything more than just academic.

Maggie Perzyna  

Saba?

Dr Saba Safdar  

I think we still have a lot to learn about the everyday, lived experiences of belonging. What it feels like, and how people negotiate, and how it shifts over time. In today's super diverse, constantly changing world, we also need to pay attention to intersectionality, how ethnicity, class, language, migration status, religion and other factors combine to shape who feels included and who feels left out. I also think AI is becoming a big part of this picture. It can shape who gets accepted to migrate, the kinds of jobs they are considered for, and even the support or barriers they encounter in your country. This means AI isn't neutral. It can either reinforce existing inequalities or help create fairer, more inclusive pathways for newcomers and understanding. Belonging today means paying attention to both these human experiences and technological systems that influence them.

Maggie Perzyna  

Before we wrap up, let's do a quick lightning round. I'll throw out some questions, and you just give me the first thing that comes to mind. Okay, John, what is your favourite book?

Dr John Berry  

Murray Sinclair's book on 'Who we are', and I'm currently reading Jody Wilson-Raybould's book on true reconciliation, which has an incredible array of quotes and anecdotes from Canadian history, from both Indigenous and non-Indigenous perspectives.

Maggie Perzyna  

Saba?

Dr Saba Safdar  

Currently, my favourite author is Yuval Harari. I like the way he analyses the challenges that we face as human species, and the role that AI plays in this as well.

Maggie Perzyna  

Okay, next, what policy buzzword should disappear?

Dr John Berry  

Mainstream and minority, these terms have no meaning anymore in our increasingly diverse, culturally diverse societies,

Dr Saba Safdar  

Maybe best practices, because best practices is different at different contexts, and with different ethnic groups and with different minorities.

Maggie Perzyna  

Okay, on to the next. Favourite place that you've done field work or research?

Dr John Berry  

That's hard to tell, because I've been mainly doing field research with Indigenous communities, Highland New Guinea, Central Africa, James Bay, Hudson Bay, Bihar in India. They're all favourites in the sense that they expose me to incredibly new experiences.

Dr Saba Safdar  

Currently, one of my favourite places where I have done research is Thailand. In Bangkok.

Maggie Perzyna  

Thailand is a hard place not to love. And finally, what's one thing about you that we can't learn from your CV?

Dr John Berry  

Sailing, being on the water, which I've done most of my life, including here in Canada and currently in the British Virgin Islands.

Maggie Perzyna  

Saba, what's one thing we can't learn about you from your CV?

Dr Saba Safdar  

I have a creative side to me. I'm a drummer. For me, drumming isn't just about music. It's about energy flow, and it's about anticipating what is especially if you play with someone else or with a band, that teamwork, collaboration, that performance, a sense of presence, focus. I like everything about drumming, particularly as an instrument.

Maggie Perzyna  

Oh, wow, your neighbours must love you.

Dr Saba Safdar  

Yes, I know I always have to apologize, though, yeah, yeah.

Maggie Perzyna  

Oh, I love that. Thank you both so, so, so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Dr Saba Safdar  

It was a pleasure. Thank you. 

Maggie Perzyna  

Thanks so much to John Berry and Saba Safdar for joining me today and thank you for listening. This episode was produced by Toronto Metropolitan University journalism student Kristian Cuarezma alongside executive producer Angela Glover. Special thanks to the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council and CERC Migration for making this conversation possible. If you're enjoying Borders & Belonging, follow us on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and share your thoughts with us on LinkedIn. For more on today's conversation, check out the show notes.